I just finished quite a lengthy response to a recent comment made by “Joe Mamma”. I hope I communicated our concerns and challenges adequately, so I wanted to bring it to the top of the conversation and make sure others can provide their input to my concerns and response.Â
Joe Mamma,
Not sure why you read anger in my response. I’m not mad at all. It actually takes quite a bit for me to get actually angry about something. I’m just frustrated that I wasn’t involved earlier and did at least something more to try to have kept some of these school board members from getting elected.
Regarding your comments:
Edison meeting: I don’t think anybody has ever stated the meeting never happened. I believe the statements are that it didn’t happen as stated and that the comments made have been taken out of context. Seems like the M.O. of the gang of four of pretty much everything they do. The reason Dr. Williams didn’t deny him saying the comments is that they were said, or something similar. The problem is that the entire context of the comments are not being shared. Dr. Williams reference to BB’s and 12-gauge’s was in response to a teacher’s question about what they could do next to help support their school. I find it odd that the board and anti-Williams supporters are criticizing teachers and parents for being passionate about their school.
[Side note, I’m not sure why you’re going ahead and spelling out some of your words. We know exactly what you’re saying and I’m the one that moderates comments, so your comments will make it through]
$700 Dinners: You stated, “I feel someone is spending our taxpayers money pretty foolishly. That I’m not happy with.” So, you’re unhappy with that, but you don’t care about a board member requesting hugely expensive 3rd party audit without doing her own research, you approve of the money being spent to hire an additional attorney, you approve of the money being spent for a facilitator when we could have a free one, you approve of the money being spent on security at school board meetings that’s unneeded, you approve money being paid to our superintendent for doing nothing because they don’t have anything they can actually use to fire him, you approve of significantly increasing the pay of the interim supt.? I believe the board has mismanaged finances to a far more damaging degree in 3 months than Dr. Williams ever has in 13 years.
360 Degrees: Susan stated that teachers should make a 360 degree turn with their efforts. If they did that they’d be facing the same way they were initially. Little, but obvious mistake.
Graduation Rate: stay tuned about this one, I’ll be posting something on the TBPS site this evening about this.
Statements by School Board Members: You stated, “Seems to me that they can’t say these things in public unless they are true or at least they have to be able to back them up. I was referring to the school board.” Seemingly they can, and they can also package them up in a media kit and hand them to the press as from the entire board, when it was nothing of the sort. Yet, the public can’t say anything in the alotted time for public comments. We can’t ask about personnel issues and the board can’t share, until Susan Adams decides to almost read from Dr. William’s personnel file at the Monday night board meeting. She didn’t deny it either. I may not get the quote verbatim, but she said something along the lines of “surely I can talk about personnel issues if I want to since I’m the President”. Ummm, wrong!
Comments about yelling/hatefulness: The entire auditorium was nothing but civil when the four board members left. It was probably one of the best opportunities for public comment I’ve ever seen at a school board meeting. Everyone that spoke was intelligent, respectfully and courteous. You want to know why? Because the three board members that remained and Mr. Nichols respected us and listened intently to what we had to say. They didn’t smirk, sneer, pass notes, ding or interupt us. Regarding examples to my kids? I want them to see that when things aren’t right, you must stand up and fight for what is right. I’ve done nothing that I wouldn’t be proud of my son doing in the same situation. I wonder if the four board members could say that about their own children and their actions.
Mark Thompson’s Email/Vmail: I do have examples of his bullying and threats. However, I’ve been asked by the individuals on the receiving end not to publish them because of their concern over him lashing out more. I’m still trying to encourage them to allow me to publish them. Hopefully I can convince them, because this type of behaviour should be exposed with a bright spotlight.
My wife: You commented, “I was referring to when she yelled out “You go Charlie”. And the chanting. The girls - the 4 board members.” Who is Charlie? Why would she yell that out?
Mob Behaviour: You commented, “As was pointed out Monday night and you would have heard it if you had stayed, I only left because of the Mob like behavior and I was afraid it was gonna get out of hand. I would of liked to of stayed. But with all the hate and ranting and raving going on, I thought it was best to leave with the kids.” You should have stayed, there was nothing even close to mob behaviour exhibited by the audience. You’re mistaken again.
Dr. Williams working with parents: I’ll agree with you on this one, but only to a point. There’s no way that ANY individual is going to make everyone happy, and shouldn’t be held responsible for doing so. As with any situation in the “real world” why wouldn’t you go above his head in this situation? He works for the board right? Why didn’t you go to the board? Did you? What else did you do? I’m not sure all the details of what happened in your situation, and by no means am I trying to belittle it or brush it under the carpet. But is something happens to my kids that would make me that upset towards an individual for not doing something, I’d still be yelling about it. Maybe that’s what you’re doing now. I don’t know.
Friends and checks/balances: You’re throwing some strong accusations around. Do you have proof that Dr. Williams had some kind of relationship with K.Carter? I don’t know, but I wouldn’t be accusing anyone of it by name if I didn’t have rock solid proof. There have been rumors of this sort about other people that could be published on this, but I haven’t allowed it to happen. I’d caution you to be careful. You asked about checks/balances. I believe there are checks/balances for the supt., it’s called the school board. If they would have followed procedures and handled the situation like they should have, I’d probably be backing them more right now. The problem is they haven’t. Let me ask you this though, who holds the school board in check. As we’ve seen through this whole ordeal, the public/parents/citizens are powerless to really do anything. When we try, even those opposed to us outside the school board tell us to shut-up, “elections are over”, etc. How is a school board held in check? I personally believe a judicial oversight committee should be appointed and should be comprised of principals, teachers, parents, students, and local business leaders.
Best for children: It confuses me how you can say you want the best for children, but can agree with what’s happened in this township over the past few months. That’s a mystery to me.
Jason
You have just done what you accuse Susan Adams of doing, (Twisting my words) I NEVER made ANY accusations towards Williams or Carter.
I was mererly asking a question.
Joe Mamma,
“The problem I have with that is bias check and balances. How good of friends are they? Will they look the other way if I do this? Is it true that Kathleen Carter is/was his girl friend? Did she get her position ahead of anyone else due to that fact? It’s questions like this, this is why it is not a good ideal.”
I believe anyone who would read your statement above would accept them as an accusation that Dr. Williams had a relationship with her and that she may have gotten her position because of that relationship. In statements like this, of this type, a mere mentioning of a possible relationship is an accusation.
It’s very similar to the strategy that Nancy Walsh has used with a couple of parents I’ve talked to when she’s said ” ‘hypothetically ‘ if the superintendent were having an affair….”
I believe if your statement was merely a question, there would have been no need to mention the other individual by name. Because you mentioned her by name I do need to apologize again for not editing out her name. I had stated earlier on the site with my refocus on maintaining civility that I didn’t want people’s names brought into the conversation that weren’t already a part of the public knowledge. For that I do apologize.
Joe Mamma,
Maybe more clarity in your posts would prevent others from twisting your words. Maybe you could just stop trying to convince others to agree with you. It does no good. Besides, you are not representing the cause very well. We need to focus on supporting our elected school board, not on our own problems.
I still think you do not understand what I am saying. You ask why it wasn’t a good idea to hire good friends.
My answer was, It’s how questions like that get started. Maybe I didn’t work it very well but this is what I was trying to say. I was not asking for any answers because I understand that they are ONLY rumors. But I was just trying to make a point. I understand that rumors have NO place in this mess. Nor was I trying to start any. I was sincere about trying to find the truth. And about trying to open up a honest (without put downs, anger) conversation with you. And only you. I really do believe you search for the truth. And I just like you( I’m pretty sure) DON’T like being lied to. If I’m being lied to then I want to see proof of course (wouldn’t you?) I am trying to keep an open mind here. Common Sense tell me that you all wouldn’t be sooo angry for NO GOOD reason. I’m only trying to understand.
Yes I’ve had a change of heart as far as, I need to investigate some more SEE PROOF. Maybe not believe everything without proof.
I’m human. I’m trying very hard not to get nasty back to people who have gotten nasty to me. I know I’ve made smart xss remarks, I was weak and allow myself to pull down into the mud after being attack. I’m trying to rise above that. For me that’s a big step because I’ve already told you that I’m a smart xss.
If your not interested just say so. No hard feelings. I’ll search else where.
Joe,
I like you and I like your efforts, like mine, to find the truth. I believe we are probably fairly similar individuals and I respect you. Let’s keep up the search together for FACTS and TRUTH. As you said, which I have also stated before, if Dr. Williams has done something that is illegal or potentially even more than personality differences I want to know about them.
This is my personal encouragement to you to remain active on this site and to help keep us in check on our efforts as well. May we meet sometime in person and realize it one day. =)
Thank you
I also respect you.
I also think that we are similar in our quest for truth.
“Joe Mamma,
Maybe more clarity in your posts would prevent others from twisting your words. Maybe you could just stop trying to convince others to agree with you. It does no good. Besides, you are not representing the cause very well. We need to focus on supporting our elected school board, not on our own problems.”
News Flash School Board Apologist!
No one from ‘the cause’ has represented ‘the cause’ particularly well because there is no good reason for ‘the cause’. Don’t equate a ’cause’ with personal differences and grievances, let alone think that an election has given them permission to act out on their personal issues with school administrators and teachers and whoever the heck else has ticked them off.
Joe mamma,
I’m glad to see that you’ve decided to verify these issues by using factual evidence vs heresay as you determining factor. I am always skeptical of what people in politics will try to push off as fact or truth. Until I personally verify it, it remains just an opinion. The best part is that you don’t end up looking like a fool when you support a side based on such. I understand that you may have had a specific issue that wasn’t handled well. since I don’t know the circumstances I cannot make judgement. I will say that Jason is correct in stating that no matter who the superintendent is they will not be able to please everybody. I have also seen statements supporting that Williams needs to go because he is arrogant. Arrogance, although annoying is not a valid reason for one’s termination. Like I’ve stated repeatedly, I want the facts. Saying that, there is no way in hell that I can support the board majority based on their unprofessional and unethical conduct. I personally would like to drag them to Iraq with me and drop them outside the green zone. This would be a true test of what they are made of.
You all make excuses for the Dr. What if a child came to school and said what he said? Phoof - expulsion! No questions asked.
Double starndards?
Outside the green zone SFC? My gosh man,.put on your green beret and lets go to battle?
Get rid of the Dr. His “buddies” will follow. Clean the house.
He should resign and save the township all this grief. Go someplace else and take his gf, buddies, supplies, and haunt another school district, perferrably away from Indiana.
If Williams is PROVEN guilty of misconduct that requires termination then I support that. It still does not excuse how this board majority has conducted themselves; unprofessionally and unethically. I will not stop until these individuals are removed from the board. Go to battle? You bet! In the courts if that’s what it takes regardless of whether or not it’s a personal lawsuit or a civil suit against them all. Whatever it takes to legally take them down. As for the green zone commnent, I think you know exactly what my thoughts were there.
Nobody has to prove anything to you or anybody else. Don’t you get that? Oh, slander, libel, etc… blah, blah, blah!
Where is the proof that what the board says is not true. You are the one that must prove your accusations, the Board is acting well within their elected rights.
I don’t approve of the Board behavior either.
Is your goal to have Dr. Williams active again or to remove the 4 from the board, or both?
Lately, it seems your focus has been to get even with the 4. Getting even by poking holes in everything they say or do, and trying to remove them.
I am confused what this is about at this point based on what some on this site type.
Even More Confused stated, “Where is the proof that what the board says is not true.”
In a democratic society the burden of proof is on the accuser, not on the accused. I believe your response illustrates the crux of my issues with the “Gang of Four.”
Besides the misappropriation for the burden of proof, it is logically not possible to prove a negative (I am sure there is a need to explain this to you, but frankly I don’t have time to cast pearls of wisdom before…. (lengthy pause)… those that are not interested in dialog).
Once again you are living down to your moniker.
Brett,
Seriously, at the end of this and if Williams is found “guilty” and terminated, are you really going to take the members of the school board to court over “unethical and unprofessional” behavior?
So, after complaining about the cost of a new board attorney, outside mediators, independent audits, buyout contracts, you would subject the school system to defend itself against your law suit. How many dollars will that cost the Perry Township tax payer? Doesn’t that seem a bit frivolous if what Adams, Walsh, Thompson and Alexander have charged against Williams is true?
I’m at a loss as to why you want to legally “take them down”. Even if you disagree with what they are doing, they haven’t broken any law. Just because you disagree with their “behavior” doesn’t mean it’s unethical or unprofessional. Would you agree that Williams’ comment about burning down their houses or using a 12 gauge shot gun when a BB gun will do was totally unprofessional and unethical.
Also, as a United States solider, don’t you think that your “green zone” comment was totally out of line, unprofessional and unethical?
My position on Williams has been clearly stated in my many posts. Getting even with the board is not my intent. I despise ANY elected official that abuses their power and conducts themselves unprofessionally. It’s even worse when those same elected officials fail to respond to their employer, the taxpayer. I have been cleared by a JAG Officer to run for school board if it becomes necessary. I will restore trust and integrity to these positions by allowing public input regardless of whether or not we agree. I will always conduct myself professionally and ethically regardless of the poor conduct of others. I will always be available to answer any questions or concerns and will always respond to emails submitted to me. This is what a professional does. I will lead by example. These four apparently lack this same ethic. That is the big issue as far as I am concerned. I do not trust elected officials that willingly and blatantly lie to the public’s face. There is no excuse for this.
To even more confused:
You asked what is the goal?
The goal is to let the board members know that they are not representing me in the way I feel they should. The goal is to let them know what my opinions are and see that they truly act in my best interest. The goal is to have a fully functional system. The goal is to be represented.
To Anthony Karushis, I believe you have met your goal of letting them know you are unhappy. Secondly, perhaps they would function better if everyone stopped doing what they are doing.
To School Board Apologist. I agree the burden of proof is on the accuser and that is why I asked you to prove your accusations against the school board. The Board does not have a burden to prove to anyone if that is what they select to do. Just because you don’t like what I am asking should not incite you to get nasty as you did with reference to my moniker. For some reason this is “personal” to you. You should excuse yourself from this debate if you cannot keep your emotions out of it. How old are you anyway? The professional, adults I work with do not start name calling when they disagree with one another. You seem to have a great appreciation for yourself and you also must think you some sense of humor. I don’t! You seem more to me like the kid in high school that alsways got picked on and now you are getting even.
I don’t have to compare my education and experiences to you or anyone to feel good about myself. You apparently do.
Brett,
You have a long way to go before I would vote for you. I admire your willingness to get involved but you are letting “radical” behavior to stimulate and motivate you. I am not speaking of the behavior of the board but the radical behavior of the group against the board.
The TBPS group and the other Williams’ supporters are showing exactly what the 4 are talking about. You all are stronger, smarter, and better than everyone else. If someone disagrees with you, then they are idiots or truely confused. You feel an obligation to knock people down in order to make yourself stand taller.
I would not run for the Board on the platform that you hate the 4 majority now for what they have done. People everyone, the common person in Perry Township, will know you are as crazy as the 4 you are trying to get rid of. IMO
You all are on the verge of going nuts; and for what?
To We Support Adams,
My “Green Zone” comment was directed specifically at their inability to properly lead this board. It is a direct attack on their leadership skills. Nothing unprofessional about this as I strongly feel that they are not qualified for this job. And yes, I do intend to follow through with whatever it takes(legally) to remove them from this board. I am working with all legal and government agencies at this time to plan the right course of action. This community deserves better. It is not my opinion that they have behaved unprofessionally and unethically as their behavior is recorded and witnessed by many. I will not tolerate this out of our elected officials. PERIOD!
As for Williams comment, yes, he did you poor judgement with his choice of words. The shotgun vs BB gun comment was attacking their powers and abilities. I believe that this was his intent but it has been blown out of proportion.
to even more confused:
You misunderstand me. It doesn’t matter if I disagree with the board members. It doesn’t matter that I am “unhappy” (your words, not mine). What matters is that I don’t believe that my best interests are being represented. I may be well represented and still disagree with the results. But, at least my interest would be taken into account.
Some of the board majority do not seem to care what anyone else thinks. Some have taken the time to listen and I appreciate that. But, All board members should care what the public thinks and listen to us and act accordingly. Disregarding us is the problem.
Even more confused,
You have made a false assumption that I am involved with Take Back Perry Schools. I have only gotten involved initially because PTA members and teachers asked me to. It only took one meeting to motivate me. Not any group but because I don’t accept this behavior out of them for all the reasons that I have previously stated. I am not even a firm Williams supporter. I just want the FACTS. None appear to have surfaced yet, from either side. I don’t need to knock anyone down either. They have done this to themselves. I stand firm on that this board has conducted themselves improperly and continue to do so. This is not my opinion as the videos of their treatment of each other and the public in attendance at the meetings have been well documented. I also don’t have the need to feel superior to anyone but I will speak out when any individual misrepresents the truth or tells me I need to lower my standards and move on. I cannot simply ignore what has happened and what I believe will continue to happen. I am stronger willed than most. Some will simply give up because they lack the long term dedication to see a difficult situation through. That is a problem with our whole society.
Even More Confused stated, “Where is the proof that what the board says is not true.”
You cannot prove a negative. It is not possible to provide proof that an accusation is not true. The standard in our society (this is for good reason) is that proof needs to be provided to support an accusation. This is a foundational principle of our legal system.
We cannot allow accusations to be made without proof. If I were to accuse you of embezzlement and the burden was on you to prove my accusation was false, you would go to jail because you cannot proof a negative. Your defense would center on any proof that the embezzlement actually happened. If there is no evidence you should go free.
You have the cart before the horse.
The Board laid the facts out. You guys don’t accept them as facts. I agree with Even More Confused, it is you that must show why the facts are not facts.
To Silence Dogood,
What do you mean “You cannot prove a negative.”?
The sun doesn’t rise in the East. The grass is not green. I say fact, prove me wrong. Can you? I could go on but it is useless.
To SFC Brett Naum:
So it’s ok for the President to lie to our faces and act “unethically”??
Dear Smack That,
You state, “The sun doesn’t rise in the East. The grass is not green. I say fact, prove me wrong. Can you?”
You are exactly right in your illustration of my point. The way you prove that the Sun rises in the East is by observing the proof of where it rises. You prove the grass is green by providing an example of green grass. If the board claims that the grass is purple, you are proving nothing by stating that, “Where is the proof that what the board says is not true.”
The proof is found in the evidence presented, not in the absence of proof to the contrary; hence, you cannot prove a negative.
You are wrong again. It is easy to see why an individual incapable of logical thinking is supportive of the current school board majority.
Kelly,
Since I am an active duty soldier I am not at liberty to remark about our president.
Smack,
They have made unsupported allegations. Learn the difference.
Not to be demeaning at all, but perhaps what you call “superiority” or “arrogance” is nothing more than knowledge and the ability to think in a logical manner rather than an emotional manner. Perhaps this is why you have so much trouble understanding posters who ask you for such things as facts rather than feelings. For example, you can think all you want that Dr. Williams paid off his buddies or whatever it is you think about him, but that doesn’t make it a fact. You need hard evidence such as receipts, copies of credit card statements, substantiated bank withdrawals and deposits, etc. Things like those that cannot be disputed. That’s why we ask you and this board to show us claims that cannot be disputed. That’s all we are asking. If your claims have hard evidence (evidence that makes the claims absolutely undisputable), please share with us. I don’t know of anyone who wants a criminal running our schools.
I agree with “to Even More Confused and Smack That”. Hard evidence would go a long way in this battle. I hope that evidence is brought to light soon so that either the community as a whole can regroup and move on or continue to fight as passionately as they have for Dr. Williams.
I also know that the hard evidence that you are requesting…has been requested multiple times and who doesn’t want to give it to the Board? Terry Rice. Bill Brown. Two buddies of Dr. Williams. Exactly what is it that they are hiding that they don’t want to give up?
This comment was to be posted to this as well…weird how it got posted on the wrong page.
Kelly M/S
Feb 17th, 2007 at 11:37 am
Keep in mind, I am not trying to call out Bill Brown or Terry Rice, but seeing as how they do have a friendship with Dr. Williams, why wouldn’t they want to provide the evidence requested to exonerate their friend? Let alone the Superintendent of Perry Township. I find it hard to believe that Mr. Nichols has requested it as well as the rest of the “Gang of Four” and it is not being provided…which is where the additional attorney comes into play. To subpoena the records. Sounds to me like the Gang of Four aren’t the only ones guilty of racking up township tax dollars. This additional attorney might not have been needed if the information had simply been provided to them as requested.
Not sure why you’re comment didn’t get posted where you expected originally. I’m not sure if you were accusing me of anything or not, but I can assure you I take no action on assigning comments to one post or another. The comments are assigned to the post the comment form is filled out.
Oh no, not accusing you at all. I was just stating that it was supposed to be posted to another area. Thank you.
I have no feelings. However, those that responded to me and Smack That simply prove my point on putting people down.
Just because you say I don’t mean to be demeaning and go on doesn’t discount your actions.
I agree the Board at some point should reveal their secrets regarding Dr. Williams. However, to sit on the outside and to have no real idea of what is going on in the investigation but to spout off anyway is arrogant.
All those names and other things you beat people down with is like the pot calling….you know the rest.
And before everyone starts slamming me for all of my comments today, I would like to explain that I, like a few of you I am sure, had the day off of work. I took the time to read through the ENTIRE website and posted where I saw fit. Happy reading to everyone!